• Fizz@lemmy.nz
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    2 months ago

    Ok what’s the moral justification for eating meat?

    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      2 months ago

      i don’t need one. there is no reason for me to believe it’s immoral. it’s probably amoral.

      • naught@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        Do you think that animals have consciousness? Do they feel pain, fear? Is it moral for you to inflict pain and fear on a conscious being? What about 1,000,000 of those beings? Would you butcher a toddler for meat? What about an animal with similar (or more) depth of emotion and cognition than that? Is it okay because they are other species? What about the deforestation caused by animal agriculture? What about the impact on climate change? I think there are many valid moral arguments that you are outright dismissing with a mere hand wave. I hope you give it some more thought

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 months ago

          if you have an argument that it is immoral, make it. i don’t care for your interrogative style.

          • naught@sh.itjust.works
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            2 months ago

            I like to give people questions to ponder and explore. I think my arguments are very clear from the questions I have raised. Suffering of conscious beings is a negative thing. Particularly the egregious conditions in which we raise our “meat”. This isn’t even considering the horrible conditions that humans suffer working in and around the meat industry.

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              2 months ago

              I like to give people questions to ponder and explore.

              if you don’t wan to construct an argument that’s fine, but the socratic method isn’t terribly convincing for me and many others.

              • naught@sh.itjust.works
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                2 months ago

                You can’t appreciate a philosophical argument on a philosophical issue? I suppose that can be valid. It seems to me you don’t want to consider the ideas I have raised in good faith

                • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  2 months ago

                  i’m willing to consider a fully formed argument. i’m not willing to be pestered by an endless interrogation.

              • enkers@sh.itjust.works
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                2 months ago

                There’s obviously no way to prove this sort of statement, however every conscious being I’ve asked has told me they don’t like suffering. Additionally, almost all conscious beings specifically go out of their way to avoid suffering. I personally find this evidence sufficiently convincing.

                  • enkers@sh.itjust.works
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                    2 months ago

                    We’re not simply talking about pain, though. I like the painful sensation from hot peppers, for example, but I wouldn’t ever wish to subject myself to the systematic violence and awful conditions that farmed animals face.

              • naught@sh.itjust.works
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                2 months ago

                Can you supply a convincing argument for suffering? We are fully capable of living with much, much less meat production. Why should we continue to inflict pain on things which can experience it? It seems manifest to me

                • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  2 months ago

                  Can you supply a convincing argument for suffering?

                  i’m not saying it’s a moral good. i’m saying it’s amoral. as in it is neither good or bad in itself.

                  • naught@sh.itjust.works
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                    2 months ago

                    We have agency over our actions and the ability to reduce the negative impacts we have on the world. We are unique in this ability, and we should exercise it

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 months ago

          Is it moral for you to inflict pain and fear on a conscious being?

          i suppose that depends on circumstances.

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 months ago

          What about the deforestation caused by animal agriculture?

          that’s bad. buying beans doesn’t fix it though.

          • naught@sh.itjust.works
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            2 months ago

            This is a strawman. No one is arguing buying beans fixes deforestation. However, if less meat is produced (ie less animals are raised for slaughter), then less deforestation will come as a result of the meat industry. If legume farming was destroying the rainforest, I’d have a problem with that too

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              2 months ago

              If legume farming was destroying the rainforest,

              turns out, a lot of the the deforested amazon is being used to grow soy.

                • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  2 months ago

                  the vast majority of the world’s soy (about 85%) is pressed for oil in an oil press for human use. the byproduct of the press is called soy meal or soy cake, and would be a waste product if we didn’t find a use for it. currently, almost all of it goes to feed livestock, (about 70% of the entire crop-weight).

                  soybeans are used by people, and we feed the trash to livestock.

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              2 months ago

              if less meat is produced (ie less animals are raised for slaughter), then less deforestation will come as a result of the meat industry.

              but just being vegan doesn’t cause this to happen.

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 months ago

          you are outright dismissing with a mere hand wave.

          i am not. i have been fighting with vegans, primarily on issues of the environment, for i think 8 or 9 years now. i have heard about every argument (though i’m always excited to find a new one!), and i have not been convinced by any of them that i have a duty to be vegan.

    • joonazan@discuss.tchncs.de
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      2 months ago

      I think it is funny to make this an ethics discussion when there is plenty of evidence that bacon and sausage cause digestive tract cancers. Meat is also pretty expensive unless heavily subsidized.

      I think the main focus should be on educating people that a healthy diet contains a very small amount of meat even though the meat industry has managed to make people think it should be in every meal.