More than 200 Substack authors asked the platform to explain why it’s “platforming and monetizing Nazis,” and now they have an answer straight from co-founder Hamish McKenzie:
I just want to make it clear that we don’t like Nazis either—we wish no-one held those views. But some people do hold those and other extreme views. Given that, we don’t think that censorship (including through demonetizing publications) makes the problem go away—in fact, it makes it worse.
While McKenzie offers no evidence to back these ideas, this tracks with the company’s previous stance on taking a hands-off approach to moderation. In April, Substack CEO Chris Best appeared on the Decoder podcast and refused to answer moderation questions. “We’re not going to get into specific ‘would you or won’t you’ content moderation questions” over the issue of overt racism being published on the platform, Best said. McKenzie followed up later with a similar statement to the one today, saying “we don’t like or condone bigotry in any form.”
Do not tolerate the intolerant.
Toleration is a social contract. Those that break the contract should not be allowed to seek protection under it.
This is such a wonderfully ironic statement. It is through toleration that they are painted in a poor light.
Tolerance is a social contract not a right. If you are tolerant, you earn tolerance for yourself. If you are intolerant, you don’t deserve tolerance yourself. It’s really not that complicated imo. I don’t feel the need to be tolerant of racist, bigoted people.
Tolerance is a social contract not a right. If you are tolerant, you earn tolerance for yourself. If you are intolerant, you don’t deserve tolerance yourself.
I’ve never heard it said that way. This is a fantastic way to put it.
You dont. You just have to be tolerant of their existence because theirr existance is protected by right and law. If you punch a Nazi your still getting charged with assault and battery. If you kill a racist your still going to jail. We dont illegalize views and ideas in america.
No you don’t have to tolerate their existence.
We fought a war against Nazis for a fucking reason.
Their ideals are shut and anyone who pushes them is worth less than the air they breath and the dirt they shit in.
The first amendment says you do in fact have to tolerate them sir. You may not commit acts of violence against them for their speech or you get put in prison. Thats the way it is.
The first amendment applies to the government’s actions. Not personal actions.
Hate speech is not a protected class so you can be refused service for it at any business,
This is ideal, but falls on a simple premise - everyone believes the other party is intolerant and that they are proudly righeous in behaving like a judge, jury and executioner.
Open and free critique means manipulation and grooming happens far less effectively, which neuters anything from its core. Society is the judge, but it must also be the metric it is measured against.
deleted by creator
Funny, I thought they hated gays too /j
I feel like you’re just being contrarian for its own sake.
The first paragraph is just plain false. Everyone believes others to be intolerant? No, the parent comment just said you be intolerant to the people who prove themselves to be intolerant? “Judge, Jury, Executioner”? Word salad. And people should judge others - we already do that, thats how we know if we can trust someone and expend the energy spend guarding against them in more useful tasks. The second paragraph is just a whole lot of words that say nothing.
Also, I’m just following your advice:
Open and free critique means manipulation and grooming happens far less effectively, which neuters anything from its core.
Be better.
paradox of tolerance
paradox of tolerance
From the article…
“I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.”
there is nothing worthwhile lost silencing nazi bullshit from social media
there is nothing worthwhile lost silencing nazi bullshit from social media
"… as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.”
If you don’t win the argument, the argument goes on forever.
lol imagine trying to ‘win’ an argument with an idiot instead of just mocking them for the lulz…
lol imagine trying to ‘win’ an argument with an idiot instead of just mocking them for the lulz…
It’s not about winning, or replying directly to just the troll/conflict bot.
It’s about leaving an elaboration of the initial opinion, for everyone else who comes by later to the topic and reads.
I just want to make it clear that we don’t like Nazis either
Actions speak louder than words. Fuck Substack and fuck any platform that offers a safe haven for nazis.
“I want you to know that I don’t like nazis. But I am fine platforming them and profiting from them. Now here is some bullshit about silencing ‘ideas.’”
“I don’t like Nazis… but you have to understand, they’re very profitable.”
Nazism doesn’t deserve tolerance, any person who doesn’t punch it in the face is equal or worse.
Agreed. Unfortunate that many times this is met with some smug shit about “wanting echo chambers”
Not wanting a feed full of modern phrenology and a 20 page analysis about how this weeks 13 year old black kid getting murdered by the cops for looking at them wrong is “totally fine and actually should happen more” does NOT mean I “want echo chambers”
What about my friend No-Arms Norman? All he can do is kick a Nazi in the ass!
Not true! Norman can also kick the teeth out of those fucking nazi mouths!
But can he kick a nazi so hard in the balls he tore a tendon in his foot?
I’d suggest against it, how would he function with only one usable extremity?
Fists aren’t a cure to intolerance. Probably doesn’t hurt so knock
yourselfa nazi out. As long as force isn’t being used to prevent open discussion and debate, it would be most unwise to drive dangerous ideologies underground where they can’t be monitored and understood.You should read the tolerance paradox, to understand why you shouldn’t be tolerant to intolerant people.
Why would someone would know myself? you idiot? I am not nazy or plan to tolerate them.
Those ideologies should be put in the mud where they belong, it is good to read history to understand why they are bad, and only stupid untolerant and racists edgelords are the ones that think that being nazi is cool.
Lol, you think you can monitor and understand those? lol. Just look how dangerous racist idiots are, for example the maga, who tried to overturn the election, in an attempt to inssurection, all of those idiots are traitors, and if they want to say that it is not that bad, then they are also as stupid as those inssurectionits.
I like the idea that tolerance is a social contract.
You’re only covered by it when you practice it.
You break the contract by being intolerant, nobody is obligated to be tolerant to you anymore.
That is the paradox of tolerance. And describes how you need to stop being tolerant to groups like the nazis.
Tolerating Naziism and allowing it to use social tools to spread its hate is what makes it worse.
Teach critical thinking skills as a pillar of the school curriculum and the population will be immunized preventing the spread.
And teach the value of everyone being equal and their human rights, in school and at home, where it matters (both).
We already knew that SS liked Nazis.
All joking aside, silencing Nazis and deplatforming them is LITERALLY fighting against them. How is allowing them to make money and market themselves on your platform doing anything to stem the tide of Nazism? Obviously they’re playing culture war games and saying they’re not.
Yeah, people don’t seem to realize how insidious this shit is. Unfettered capitalism is allowing these fuckers to gain credibility and giving them a soapbox under the guise of “free speech.”
The desire for profit above all else, combined with the fact that the last of the people alive during (and old enough to understand) WW2 dying off, has been allowing fascism to wrap its filthy tendrils around our society once again. Preventing these people from taking power needs to be our priority, but unfortunately, constantly having to fight against this shit impedes all other progress.
Free speech is not absolute. Fascists (and particularly ones that call themselves Nazis) have no place in modern society, and they should be given no quarter because we’ve seen what happens if we don’t root them out.
This is not just a disagreement on policy, or a mere difference of opinion. These people literally want my friends dead.
Nazism isn’t an ideology, is a direct threat of violence. Anyone around a Nazi has a right to self defense rooted in natural law. That’s why is fine to punch Nazis.
Facebook just shrugs off the rampant white supremacist content on its platform with great success, you can literally put up a profile photo with an “It’s OK to be white” frame, or “white power” supplied by Facebook. I guess Substack thinks that if it works for Facebook it should be fine for them.
Incidentally Reddit banned me for posting pictures of Nazis on r/beholdthemasterrace, a subreddit for mocking white supremacy, when some Nazis went and complained to Reddit admins I was doing it. Reddit also sides with Nazis, they’re just quieter about it.
White powder 🌨️
You probably got banned by reddit because other subreddits will nail you with bots for just posting to certain subs regardless of the context.
No, I saw one of the Nazis I posted talking on Facebook about how he had reported me to Reddit admins. Well then don’t have a swastika face tattoo.
Is there some specific background to “it’s okay to be white”? Without any context it does not sound obviously " white supremacist related to me, but it could be cultural, language or other.
It’s a Nazi talking point, one of their tropes is that white people are being eradicated everywhere because of multiculturalism and diversity, and that people are being taught it’s not ok to just be white. The slogan originated from 4chan trolling but Nazis have absolutely adopted it.
No, it does not “make it worse”.
In fact, stamping out dissent and controlling people is incredibly effective. Ask any dictator.
Control is effective and necessary when it comes to people actively trying to damage society. No, I’m not supporting dictatorship or authoritarianism, just pointing out that control is effective.
Being a sect of destructive assholes doesn’t mean you should get a platform.
“I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.”
― Elie Wiesel
Mckenzie needs to read that Reddit story about the bartender who kicked out a guy with the Third Reich eagle ensign on his shirt despite him quietly minding his own business. I really don’t want Substack to “suddenly become a Nazi bar.” I’m just a reader, but if I ever start a newsletter I may reconsider my platform. I am on a basic free plan for all Substack channels I read. I’ve thought about upgrading my subscription to some, but now I will hesitate.
I’m guessing this story makes it “too late.” If I were a Nazi (I’m not) , I’d instantly flock to any sight that welcomed me.
deleted by creator
Link to story?
noticed that the story is now being summarized in dictionaries, haha
Yeah well I’m unsubscribing and deleting bookmarks. I have enough stuff to read anyway
Money is the only vote that matters. Avoid the Nazi bar. Don’t give them ad revenue or search engine relevance (for what that’s worth anymore).
Another day of thanking
godthe devs for the decentralized Fediverse and Lemmy 🙏😔You and me both. Fuck Substack and fuck Nazis.
Free speech POV aside, Substack is running a business as a publisher of content. They sell advertising space. You know what de values your advertising space? Unsafe hateful content. Advertisers care about “brand safety” in terms of what their ads appear next to. You can’t run a good advertising sales business if the advertisers don’t have guarantees on brand safety.
If you ever see it go ahead and screenshot it then email it them while CC some local news source. Hey, how do you feeling your roofing business being affiliated with this?
I mean even if it made them more money to platform confirmed shitheads, it’s still the wrong thing to do. Like ethically. It doesn’t also have to be wrong from a business or even legal perspective.
If a company can’t take that kind of stand I don’t want anything to do with them.
I am actually kind of thrilled that I have substack subscriptions, including paid, that I can pull as my little protest to this platform. Luckily my paid subscriptions have both confirmed that they’re ditching substack as well, so my support will follow them wherever they land.
I really hope that substack lets writers have access to their email lists, so they can easily take them with them.
Yea… Meta took the same “free peaches” approach and the entire fucking globe is now dealing with various versions of white nationalism. So like, can we actually give censorship of hate a fucking try for once? I’m willing to go down that road.
Never ever fall for that one. You can look at various regimes in the world what happens when “hate” gets censored. Demonitizing is one thing, technical implementations to “live censor hate” would be catastrophic.
I’m looking. Is something supposed to stand out about Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, New Zealand, Sweden, and the UK?
Gen Z needs to understand the historical lesson that the Blues Brothers taught those before them. Illinois Nazis exist, and some days they demonstrate, as per their right to freedom of speech - but this is as much as an opportunity to humiliate them and openly critique the mindset as anyone else. Dark little underground communities flourish behind closed doors.
Yeah. I feel like we see this shift in the ACLU. They used to represent some disgusting clients in order to fight for constitutional rights. Now a days the ACLU seems to struggle with protecting constitutional rights for the sake of constitutional rights, and instead is trying to do more politically liberal focused issues.
Shining daylight onto them does not mean monetizing a platform for them.
Tell me you are a fascist WO telling me you are a fascist… 🤣🤣…
This tracks with my previous attempts at reporting that Sinfest guy. Posts hundreds of comics that blatantly break multiple official substack content guidelines and I get the effective equivalent of a promise for “action” combined with a dismissive eye roll. They completely ignored my follow-up email detailing the complete lack of action and the dozen or so new content guideline violations.
